Inclusiveness

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seamus
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Inclusiveness

Post by seamus » Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:07 pm

Hi James,
Are there any plans for the 2017 season to reach out to players that continue to enjoy competing in the sport we all love but are not compelled to join the Bdga?
Currently there are 19 Pdga members in Scotland, of those a few are Jr's who don't play and then I probably missed one so let's call it 16+/- active Pdga members. Of those 16 only one is a Bdga member and only three participated in more than one Bdga events.

My main concern is regarding a post you made on Facebook earlier regarding selection for the 2018 EDGC Team stating
"Next Europeans is in two years time. Spots are and will continue to be earned through performance on the tour. Next years tour determines who gets the spots. X"
If the '17 Tour decides (or mostly decides) who earns the EDGC '18 spots and there is only one Bdga Tour in Scotland (Myerscough is an easier trip than Fanmore btw) this issue will not only linger but disparage a Bdga membership even further as well as decrease the opportunities to have the strongest players representing an inclusive team.
Any thoughts?
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rhatton1
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by rhatton1 » Wed Aug 31, 2016 10:13 am

There is a little bit of he who represents the country has the most money going on with the current system.

minimum 4 BDGA events - total cost of each including event, travel, accommodation, food etc. around £200 so at least £800 + membership £35. More likely needing at least 6 to ensure enough good results for a place - You'll need to spend at least £1000 next year in order to compete for team GB. Probably more for Scottish players having to make much longer journeys to compete.

When we have an international system that ranks players ability directly against one another in a competitive environment, wouldn't this be a better/fairer way of determining the team?

The argument that it makes more people attend British Tour events doesn't make sense to me and doesn't appear to be backed up by any facts. British Tour events are getting close to a point where no other incentives are required to get people there anyway.

Relying on PDGA ratings (maybe with a caveat of a certain number of rated rounds int he year and with a definite place for top spots in 2017 BDGA divisions) would encourage grass roots growth through formation and attendance at local PDGA leagues as players play competitively more regularly with the actual carrot of Team GB attendance possible from this play - which currently for many it financially isn't.
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LostMeow
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by LostMeow » Wed Aug 31, 2016 10:54 am

Valid points, all.

Would this thread be a better place to add them? viewtopic.php?f=33&p=24254#p24254
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by Trevor » Wed Aug 31, 2016 12:33 pm

LostMeow wrote:Valid points, all.

Would this thread be a better place to add them? viewtopic.php?f=33&p=24254#p24254

This thread could fit in a lot of areas, including development, tour format, tour 2017, what is the BDGA, Euros 2018 and beyond etc.

Seamus has hit the nail on the head though and while he specially refers to Scotland, there is much that is relevant to the whole UK.

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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by LostMeow » Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:34 pm

Fair enough - it was just that Seamus said his main concern referred to the EC team selection.

All good points that have been raised. I guess I could turn them on their head and ask: what do people want from the BDGA? I perceive a lot of pressure for us to do something, I'm just in no way close to figuring out what that something is...
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by Trevor » Wed Aug 31, 2016 3:13 pm

LostMeow wrote:All good points that have been raised. I guess I could turn them on their head and ask: what do people want from the BDGA? I perceive a lot of pressure for us to do something, I'm just in no way close to figuring out what that something is...
I'm really surprised you asked this, I could hear the can of worms being opened all the way from Scotland. Here are some things I would like from the BDGA.

Many people I have spoken to have said that the only thing they get from the BDGA is a reduced entry fee at tournament. Quite a few of them have been long standing members who have always been members just to support the cause. This year quite a few have not rejoined because there are no other benefits, they dont tour and cannot afford it or do not want to pay for zilch. There is also a widely held view that the BDGA has stagnated.

How about something simple to start with? A hat or a mini with and individual membership number, or the Bag tags of old. What about BDGA merchandise available at cost to members. Something definitive.

Communication? Im going to point the finger at James. He said he would give an interim directors update in April. Nothing yet. Keep the members informed. (IMO social media is the wrong way, this forum is the correct way).

The web site. there has been talk of updating it for years. Whats happening? Communicate.

The Newsletter is brilliant, but it is not a membership benefit. Could it be members only?

Insurance? Anecdotaly I have heard that the BDGA does not supply this and Im sure there are reasons for it but I personally feel it should be a membership benefit.

Evolve the tour. There are thousands or words devoted to this on the forum. My take is that it needs to change and evolve. It dosen't need to be broken to change it.

Development committee. Whats happening with this? communicate.

The BDGA needs to decide what it is. Again thousands of words have been written on this but it would be good if an official line was taken / decided on so that we as an organisation can move on. (Is it specifically for the Tour, for grass roots growth, for course development, for the team at the euros?). Decide, communicate, even if its a regular update saying "nothings happened yet but we are meeting on Tuesday".

Be inclusive.

So there are some ideas about what needs to be done. I'm sure that the movers and shakers will have more to add and that some of my points are easily and fairly refuted - fair enough.

I know that this is a volunteer organisation and the board and many others give their time up for free and it is difficult to do everything at once or quickly so leeway is always happily given. Any perceived criticism is always meant to be constructive.

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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by seamus » Wed Aug 31, 2016 3:38 pm

James?,
So No there is currently no plan to reach out to players that continue to enjoy competing in the sport we all love but are not compelled to join the Bdga.
There is No plan in the works to encourage an inclusive UK wide system in 2017 in regards to EDGC Team selections for '18.

Thank You.

Tom I'm sorry for putting any pressure on you at all, Thank You for responding. I know I sound like a broken record sometimes (and we've talked this to death before), but these things are actually very important to the growth of our sport.

btw there is a whole lot of "something" right here in regards to EDGC Team selection,
rhatton1 wrote:Relying on PDGA ratings (maybe with a caveat of a certain number of rated rounds int he year and with a definite place for top spots in 2017 BDGA divisions) would encourage grass roots growth through formation and attendance at local PDGA leagues as players play competitively more regularly with the actual carrot of Team GB attendance possible from this play - which currently for many it financially isn't.
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by bruce » Wed Aug 31, 2016 7:26 pm

James is likely still in Finland, with little Internet access. Frankly I wouldn't have been responding to this until my return during my tenure, so maybe cut a little slack?

Even when I was around, I frequently took a few days to compose a response.

These are not trivially answered questions, if they were they would be trivially answered.
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by seamus » Thu Sep 01, 2016 8:36 am

For the sake of clarity in my original post I questioned if there "is a plan", not "what exactly is the plan".
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by BOF » Fri Sep 02, 2016 3:09 pm

Maybe if you'd all aired your opinions on The Facebook you might have got an immediate response..?

(stands back and lights blue touch paper)

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richard
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by richard » Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:07 pm

Here are my answers to things that I know and a couple of opinions for good measure.

Firstly, this is exactly the sort of debate that the forum is so much better at than Facebook. I have posted this over there to invite FB users to read and contribute. Currently there are only 20% of British DGers using the forum and if that continues I would certainly investigate avenues that would be more inclusive. Certainly the forum will not be the main BDGA Announcemnt centre.

Website: the new site is very nearly ready to publish. We have been working steadily and it just needs a little tidying and proof reading and we are good to launch. I will be meeting with Nige Williams at Creeksea this weekend.He has very kindly offered to continue hosting the site for us. He has also redesigned the site using a system that the contributors can easily edit. Nige has and will not have any editorial input, he will just babysit the laymen that have. The website will be the primary BDGA Announcement Centre.

Newsletter: I'm glad that you like it. However, on a thread called "Inclusiveness" I am reluctant to make the newsletter Members Only.

Development Committee... Please see other thread on forum with its Aims and Job Spec. Development Officer applications are now being accepted.

My Opinions

Membership Benefits.
The mini/cap etc give away with each years membership is always up for debate. The amount that we charge for membership would just have to go up by the amount that it would cost to design a logo (or us going cap in hand for freebies), buying and shipping the items and then the p&p to get said items to the member. I'm just not sure if the added money to the cost is going to be universally popular. I wonder just how many of the members really consider another mini worth the extra. Or the non cap wearer who now has spend a third of his membership money on a item he would never wear. Do you have a box to tick where you say no thank you I'll just pay for membership? If so you wasted a lot of money to secure the items that sit in the garage.

Finally, regarding and with respect to the Scottish disc golfing contingent that we are discussing. What is their opinion on the subject? I apologise for my ignorance but I am not hearing a lot of chatter on FB . I am members of all the British Disc Golf groups that I am aware of but I really don't hear a huge amount about Scottish disc golf there. I get some from Seamus at Reboot, but not much else. If there are groups that I am ignorant of please accept my apologies and also introduce yourselves.

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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by robbnot » Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:04 pm

Lots of very good points there very well put.
Getting something for joining can be simply answered.
A pin badge with the existing logo*, would cost the BDGA £345 for 500 - 69p each
Put my membership fee up a quid and give me a badge...
"look I'm a member" = proud and happy disc golfers


* i see no reason to change a logo that is perfectly good, why not spend the money it would cost to design a new logo on products, ie. Hats badges patches socks umbrellas tshirts hoodies thermos mugs hip flasks minis discs bags etc etc
You don't even need to buy stock all you have to do is find a decent print/embroidery company pay them to set up the existing design (about £50ish) and chuck a fiver or tenner on top.
It seems logical,
Then when we've all got stuff, you change the logo (with the profit you made) and sell it to us all again,...
8)
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by robbnot » Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:16 pm

Back to the EDGC '18
If the top players in the BDGA tour qualify, then why not have the top of the Quaich tour qualify aswell
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by james » Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:33 pm

Ok this is just a brief message until I can get home from work and write a full response hopefully tomorrow if I don't get kept too late!
I apologise for not writing earlier Seamus I must have missed the post going up whilst I was away and I happily admit myself I don't often check the forum daily. My bad.

In answer to your question the tour and it's structure is up for debate at the AGM coming up at nationals and then will potentially be put to an online vote. However, those voting will of course be BDGA members as has been the case before. Non-members will not get votes for obvious reasons. But yes we would like to increase inclusivity and I would love to hear some suggestions that you may have.

With regards to qualification for EDGC this is my personal opinion and may not be shared by the rest of the board. We have always picked our team based on performance over the tour season. By doing this I believe we pick a team of players who have not only shown consistency over the year but also a commitment to British Disc Golf and their reward for this is to represent GB at international tournaments. I dispute Richs claim that it favours those who have the most money, I would point out that I go to every tournament and have been on minimum wage for the past year. You either prioritise disc golf or you don't that's a personal choice. However, I recognise the added costs of travel for Scottish players this is a shame and I spoke to Hans at EDGC about having Scottish players represent Scotland at the next Euros. After all we have England Scotland Wales and Both Iriah nations at the football why not the disc golf!

When addressing the idea of allowing players to qualify through rating provided a certain number of rounds are achieved I have a few issues with. My first problem I will use my example of last years tour. I believe when I won the tour I had a rating that was below Dan, Hamish, Seonaidh and I think one other British player. Though I can't be sure. If my memory is correct then that leads to a situation in which the national champion doesn't get a spot on the team. Somewhat unfair. The other issue I have is that Hamish and Shawny (I assume these are the players you mean who did not qualify for the team) do not regularly compete against the highest level players in Britain. Make no mistake they are both high level competitors but if let's say in a year they play one BDGA tour event and the entire quaich tour and end up with a 985 rating. How can we be sure that those ratings match up accurately to the ratings of the players who have been playing on a larger tour with a higher number of high rated players? It's a statistical nightmare to ensure the right players are picked.

For these reasons I think it is so difficult to pick players based on rating. I have always advocated picking players based on tour performance so that every player at the start of the year knows that if he/she plays their socks off for that year they stand a chance. Whereas hoping that someone else's rating slips because it's difficult to jump 20/30 rating points in a year gives players less chance and limits the number of people competing for places if anything.

These are just my opinions. Much of this will be discussed at the AGM I'm sure. If anyone has a strong opinion either way on this matter feel free to send one of the board members an email and we will be sure that your voice is heard at the AGM even if you cannot be there in person.

Thanks for reading. Sorry this is quite long. I got a bit excited :)
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by james » Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:34 pm

robbnot wrote:Back to the EDGC '18
If the top players in the BDGA tour qualify, then why not have the top of the Quaich tour qualify aswell
Has been discussed and will continue to be. Fingers crossed but it's not down to us its more a PDGA Europe/EDGF decision I believe.
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by Neil M » Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:01 am

james wrote: I believe we pick a team of players who have not only shown consistency over the year but also a commitment to British Disc Golf and their reward for this is to represent GB at international tournaments.
No. You are rewarding people who show a commitment to the BDGA Tour not British Disc Golf. They are 2 very different things. And I would argue that this is a huge part of the problem some people have with the BDGA currently and it's perceived identity crisis.
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by james » Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:24 am

Obviously there are a number of ways to show commitment to British Disc Golf. But it is unfair to say that players who regularly attend tournaments and get involved in the disc golf scene in this country, of which the tour is a large part, are not showing a commitment to British Disc Golf.
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by rhatton1 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:56 am

Neil M wrote:
james wrote: I believe we pick a team of players who have not only shown consistency over the year but also a commitment to British Disc Golf and their reward for this is to represent GB at international tournaments.
No. You are rewarding people who show a commitment to the BDGA Tour not British Disc Golf. They are 2 very different things. And I would argue that this is a huge part of the problem some people have with the BDGA currently and it's perceived identity crisis.
This

also above I didn't say ratings as the only qualifier, but as an additional qualifier. The tour champ should of course have a spot.
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by rhatton1 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:00 am

20% ?

Do 20000+ disc golfers use the forum?

Don't undervalue the size of the sport in the country. There's over 100000 people that play every year and growing. The bdga appears only focused on a tiny tiny portion of this number
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Re: Inclusiveness

Post by LostMeow » Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:27 am

rhatton1 wrote:Don't undervalue the size of the sport in the country. There's over 100000 people that play every year and growing. The bdga appears only focused on a tiny tiny portion of this number
If that is the case (and I've no idea where you got that number from), then the BDGA trying to be inclusive of 100000 people is, in my opinion, so far beyond our means as to become laughable. Even the PDGA (the worldwide governing body) doesn't have 100000 members yet.
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